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View Full Version : Any pups with liver probs? Anybody use a holistic vet?



jennie_c_d
02-20-2006, 03:43 PM
Emma, who is not quite a doxie, has a liver problem. She's always had it. It's a congenital issue that we've been dealing with since she was a puppy. Last night, I noticed that her color was really off. I took her to the vet this morning, and they pointed out that she's YELLOW. Oh, gee, Em. What next? So, we ran bloodwork. As it has been for over a year, it was perfect. She's yellow. There's SOMETHING WRONG HERE! The vet just shrugs her shoulders. I really don't think these regular vets know enough... I've been really having a hard time with them lately, and Emma has seen 5 in six months. Well, next Tuesday, she'll see her sixth vet in six months. She's going to a holistic vet that I found on the Chi Institute website, that's not too too far away. She needs liver support. I'm doing my best, but I'm just Jennie! I don't have a clue what I'm doing. I'm giving her milk thistle, and feeding her a slightly low protein diet (like a senior diet, basically)... but she barfs up SAMe. That's all I know to do. Hopefully, we'll get some more info and something to turn this kid PINK again!

jennie_c_d
02-20-2006, 03:49 PM
Here's a photo of her lovely little face, just because:)

http://weblogimages.com/static/kpy420653TV5.jpg

Lisa
02-20-2006, 03:54 PM
Awwww, what a sweetie!

I know Patrice (lotsadox) uses a holistic vet. Sorry, I don't have any more info for you.

Courtney
02-20-2006, 05:08 PM
The vet just shrugs? OMG! Is there a veterinary teaching hospital near you? Or even a referral center with specialists? A dog turning yellow is not good at all (as you know)! They aren't treating her to adjust her bilirubin levels or anything? I don't know about holistic medicine myself but would seek a specialist or university. :bigrayz: :bigrayz: :bigrayz: :bigrayz:

Patt
02-20-2006, 05:17 PM
I'm sorry to hear about Emma. I would hesistate on giving her any supplements without knowing exactly what is wrong, but then again that's just me. ITA with Courtney's suggestion you really need to see an internist or even better a Vet Med Teaching School. Be sure to take copies of ALL Emma's records so they don't re-do the tests. Good luck and keep us posted.

Check this out, hopefully it is near you. http://www.vet.uga.edu/hospital/

lotsadox
02-20-2006, 06:17 PM
Your dog is yellow and your vet just shrugs?!?!? I don't mean to be too pushy, but I'd say it's time to get another vet. I use a holistic vet and there are a lot of things out there for liver support.

Standard Process makes the highest quality supplements. Their human supplements are find for dogs and they also have a complete veterinary line. Here's a link:

http://store.yahoo.com/spinelife/a1500.html

Let me look and see if I can find the holistic veterinary sites I had.

alfina
02-20-2006, 06:21 PM
I agree wth others. I think you really need to find a specialist real quick and get to the bottom of it.

lotsadox
02-20-2006, 06:37 PM
I've lost the list I had but here's a site the the American Holistic Veterinary Medicine site recommends to find a holistic vet.

http://www.holisticvetlist.com/

Use search now. I would recommend homeopathy. That is what my vet practices and while it seems rather strange at first, it's incredibly effective. PM or email me if you have any questions.

jennie_c_d
02-20-2006, 08:34 PM
I've been through FIVE vets in five months... I'm trying. There just aren't a lot of options here. I didn't realize how bad it was til Dec. Emma got hurt. She couldn't walk for a WEEK. Nobody would do anything but give her a pain shot and send me home. It was so frustrating and hard.

Emma has a LOT of issues. A LOT. The closest vet school is Gainesville, Fla, and it's a LONG ways. I cannot afford to take that trip, stay in a hotel (with a super sensitive dog who will likely begin to seizure from the stress, and who will break out in demodex mange from the stress of the trip) and see a specialist. I just can't. I wish I could, b/c I'd do anything for this dog, but.... it comes to a point where you can't any more.

I do have all of her records (including x rays) since I've been bouncing around.

There isn't a vet on that site anywhere near me (like within a six hour drive). The one I found was on the Chi Institute site (chi-institute.com) and she's much closer (45 minutes-1 hr). Homeopathy is amazing. I'm hoping she'll be able to set me up with some stuff to try, and maybe it'll help Emma.

What is her bilirubin level?

The dog IS yellow, but her numbers have been perfect for over a year. She has a congenital liver problem (most likely MVD, microscopic liver shunts) and she's been in MUCH worse shape than she's in now. She's eating, drinking, and playing normally. The ONLY symptom is her color. I really hope that the holistic vet helps. If it doesn't, I may end up with a specialist... I don't have any idea how I'll pay for it, but I suppose if it comes down to it, I'll figure it out. This dog has a lot of issues, and she could use a specialist for each of them. I do what I can with her, and she's doing incredibly well. Literally, the dog's needs could staff a hospital. She has her liver problem, she needs an internist. She could really use a neurologist for her seizures, and her spinal issues. She needs a dermatologist and an allergist, for demodex and allergies. She could use a behaviorist. I'm sure there's something I'm not thinking of, b/c I'm not thinking completely straight tonight... but the point is, I've spent thousands of dollars already and it's just not there to spend now.

Courtney
02-20-2006, 08:59 PM
I understand what you are going through and cannot imagine how hard it is! I hope holistic medicine does help you. I know homeopathy can be practiced long-distance...look for the Classical Homeopathy Pets group on yahoo for more info.

On bilirubin: "Bilirubin is a byproduct of hemoglobin breakdown. High bilirubin levels indicate an increase in red blood cell destruction or a diseased liver."

But I am guessing if her bloodwork is normal than her bilirubin level is too. I just know when Napoleon was jaundiced his bilirubin was high and they treated him for that, and all was well.

jennie_c_d
02-20-2006, 09:22 PM
Hmmm... I've never even heard that term. I'll have to ask about it next time I'm there. Her blood cells were fine, b/c I initially thought she was WHITE, as opposed to YELLOW (she was pale...) and they tested for anemia. Those numbers were fine. Everything is perfect. A'course, she's yellow.... So it's NOT fine.

I'll definitely look for that group on yahoo.... I'm using Hyland Hives on her now, and it helps SO MUCH for her itchies. I take homeopathic allergy medicine, as well, b/c everything else makes me non functional:) I've also used Rescue Remedy with great success for her (I know... flower remedies aren't technically homeopathic, but they seem to fit there best in my brain).

alfina
02-20-2006, 09:24 PM
I used to live in Gainesville, FL. If I were still there, you could stay with us. Unfortunately I am not there any more. I had my Sofie treated at the UF clinic. They do offer some kind of credit process. The forms are available through their reception/checkout area.

lotsadox
02-20-2006, 09:46 PM
Sorry the site didn't help, Jennie. It's hard to find good vets outside of the big cities sometimes. Holistic vets are even harder. I didn't mean to sound like I was jumping on you or thought you weren't trying to find a good one, I was just amazed that all she/he could do was shrug. Good luck and keep us posted.

jennie_c_d
02-20-2006, 09:55 PM
That's what happens a lot with Emma. These vets aren't used to people even trying with dogs as complicated as she is. Unfortunately, around here, the "it's a DOG" attitude prevails. Most dogs live outdoors, and eat very low quality kibble (Ol Roy, Beneful, and Kibbles N Bits seem the most popular). The might see a vet for shots once a year, and often get groomed only once or twice a year. It's very sad.... I shaved the sweetest little Cocker on Friday that made me wanna cry.

Alex's Mom
02-21-2006, 08:23 AM
Oh Jen, I DO know what you're going through, believe me!!!!! :shocked: I have a dog that's just like that (including chronic gall bladder and liver problems...she's on ursodiol, which helps to keep the bile ducts clear and a bit less sludgy...gotta hate sludgy bile!!!), and have also spent thousands on her. It's so hard when you know there's issues and can do nothing about them, either because of the cost, or lack of resources. For instance it took 9 months of diarrhea and vomiting and many many many visits to the vet before I could convince someone to refer me to an internist...at which point we discovered she had a ruptured malignant tumour in her bowel. And the stupid vet who had refused to do anything also refused to apologize for the fact that I almost lost my girl...we got into a HUGE fight in his waiting room and I hope everyone who heard what I had to say got up and left his practice!!! (Shy retiring moi...not where my pupper is concerned :rotfl: )

I happened to be speaking to my vet last night (I'm really lucky...my vet is also one of my best friends!) and mentioned your problem (hope you don't mind...). She said that to her it sounded like there may be a tumour on her liver, maybe blocking the bile ducts, and strongly suggested that if at all possible you should get an ultrasound done. I know...more $$$, but is there anyone in your area who does that? A lot of practices around here (not specialists) do have ultrasound, but maybe not in your area, from what you're describing. Laura (vet) practices both alternative (including homeopathy, chiro and accupuncture) and conventional medicine. She said that there may be some homeopathic solutions, but that if at all possible you should rule out the other possibilities. apparently it's not uncommon for the bloodwork to come back showing nothing unusual in situations like this; she did say that it also sounded like changes in her biliruben, but that that would show up in her bloodwork usually. Laura calls Alex the mystery doggie, cuz she has so many things wrong with her (including behavioural issues), but to all appearances is a healthy happy dog, and any one of her issues should have been enough to knock her down for the count! Sounds like your Emma is the same...twin sisters of different mothers??:rotfl:
I always say that having Alex has been a veterinary education unto itself!!!
So a HUGE :bighug: for both of you! Let us know what happens!

jennie_c_d
02-21-2006, 05:37 PM
For instance it took 9 months of diarrhea and vomiting and many many many visits to the vet before I could convince someone to refer me to an internist...at which point we discovered she had a ruptured malignant tumour in her bowel.

Good greif! That's RIDICULOUS! Poor baby.

She said that to her it sounded like there may be a tumour on her liver, maybe blocking the bile ducts, and strongly suggested that if at all possible you should get an ultrasound done.

I pray that it's not... I don't know what I'll do if it is. I guess have it removed and hope for the best?? My vet's office does have an ultrasound, but I don't think that anyone there knows how to use it. She's seeing another vet on Friday, who's done accupuncture on her before... I'll ask her about it. Depending on how that appt goes, I may cancel the appt with the new vet. *sigh* This is a little crazy. Just a smidge.

I think she and Alex MUST be related! I've learned sooo much since I got Emma. It's insane to live with her, b/c for all intensive purposes, she's a happy healthy dog. If you could peek through our windows, that's all you'd see (well that and her peeing on the floor b/c she's incontinent... and the dirty dishes in my sink:)). But... she's not. It's so weird. Strange concept to grasp, isn't it?

oceangirls
02-21-2006, 08:37 PM
I haven't experienced this, but think you have received good advice. A holistic vet is a great option... and one mark of a really good one is they would know when to refer you to a specialist. Sending all kinds of rayz:rayz: :rayz: :rayz: :bigrayz: for your very pretty little girl. Please keep us updated.

jennie_c_d
02-21-2006, 10:45 PM
Thanks....

I'm really concerned about the possibility of a tumor. The thought had struck me when she started to change color that I hope she doesn't have some sort of tumor... She's lost two pounds, and she was already skinny. Teenie has lost more weight since that weighing than Emma has, but Em is on a weight GAIN diet and Weenie girl is on a weight LOSS diet... I guess time will tell. I'll be sure to mention that to the vet on Friday.

Alex's Mom
02-22-2006, 07:54 AM
(well that and her peeing on the floor b/c she's incontinent... and the dirty dishes in my sink:)). But... she's not. It's so weird. Strange concept to grasp, isn't it?

Geez, maybe we're twins too!!! Cuz that's pretty much what you'd see in my house too...Alex is also incontinent! And we won't even talk about housekeeping!!:rotfl:

If it's a tumour, all is not lost...yes, it would mean an operation, but I seem to remember that the liver is the one organ that regenerates itself. Both my girls had cancer surgery (Maxe for lung cancer...they had to remove a lobe of her lung, and no, I don't smoke, and to the best of my knowledge, neither did she LOL), and Maxe lived for another 4 years without chemo. Alex had chemo after her surgery, because the fact that the tumour was ruptured meant that it may well have spread, and the type of cancer it was (a lyomeiosarcoma) has a 50/50 chance of reoccurring, usually in the lungs and liver. But that all happened 3 years ago, and there's been no reoccurence so far. (Chemo doesn't affect dogs at all like it does people, none of the nausea or hair loss; in fact, Alex had virtually no side effects to it at all.) So fingers crossed!!! But weight loss is not a good sign...Alex also was losing weight (although I initially put it down to her poor upset tummy...however, when I pointed it out to that :bleep: vet, he told me just to feed her more (grrrr!). She went from about 26 lbs down to 18lbs...a huge weight loss. So I'd definitely pursue the tumour idea. And please please let us know how it goes, OK? :bigrayz: :bigrayz: and a :hug99: for both of you.

jennie_c_d
02-22-2006, 03:26 PM
My vet also told me to feed Emma more, after I insisted on parasite checks, when she STARTED looking skinny, months ago. She was over 19 pounds. Now, she's 16.2. She appears to have lost muscle mass, and she's very thin. She can still run and play with the best of them....

I had to go take an hour long nap in the lovely 80° sunshine today. It greatly improved MY demeanor:) The dogs enjoy napping on the blanket with me.

It's really sounding much like a tumor. I will definitely bring it up on Friday, and see how the vet thinks she'll do... Yours were fine on chemo? One of my vets had a Boxer puppy with bone cancer and his chemo made him SICK. I definitely have to look into it more if it IS a tumor... I guess they'll ship it off to find out if it's malignant or not?

Alex's Mom
02-22-2006, 03:54 PM
Oh sure, rub it in!!! 80 degrees indeed!! I just got up from a nap too...had to crawl under the covers with my hot water dachsie (aka Alex) to warm up!!:rotfl:

It's quite rare for a dog to have a bad reaction to the chemo, although apparently they can get an upset tummy occasionally. Maybe cuz it was a puppy? My oncologist gave me a bunch of stuff to read about it, and I'll try to find some of it for you. (My stuff's all in storage at the moment, but I may have kept some of it out when I moved.) If the ultrasound shows anything, then they'd probably do a biopsy(nip a piece off which they can often do laparoscopically) and send it off to the path lab for analysis. :crossfin: :crossfin: that you won't need it though!

jennie_c_d
02-22-2006, 04:06 PM
Zeke was 14 or 16 months old when he started limping, I think. That's still a pup for a large dog. He was a very goofy guy, and did well for a while. He adapted great to three legs. Something happened, though. I don't know what, b/c I haven't asked her. She just told me that he passed away, and I left it at that....

That's good to know. I'm glad that your little dogs have done so well with it.

oceangirls
02-23-2006, 12:27 AM
I seem to remember that the liver is the one organ that regenerates itself.

You are correct - livers tend to be very resilient organs. Also, even if it was a tumor that does not mean it would necessarily be malignant - a benign tumor could be causing some obstruction-related problems... that might be fixed just by cutting it out.
:rayz: :rayz: :rayz: :bigrayz:

jennie_c_d
02-23-2006, 03:58 PM
I hope that if it is a tumor, it's that easy:) I'll let ya'll know what the vet says, tomorrow.

jennie_c_d
02-23-2006, 08:44 PM
Poor kid had a HUGE seizure today. She hasn't had one since Sept 15.... Last time was very mild. This one was a grande mal, and had no pre seizure time (she was normal, we were playing frisbee, she fell into a seizure). Poor baby girl.

Courtney
02-24-2006, 01:11 AM
:( I am so sorry to hear this. I hope you can fix her up soon. :bigrayz: :bigrayz: :bigrayz: :bigrayz: :bigrayz: Please keep us updated!

Patt
02-24-2006, 02:24 AM
Sending many :rayz: :rayz: :rayz: and :pray:ers to Emma.

Alex's Mom
02-24-2006, 08:44 AM
:bigrayz: :bigrayz: :bigrayz: for the poor little girl. And a :hug99: for you, Jennie. It's really been a rough little while for you and Emma!

Alex's Mom
02-26-2006, 07:49 AM
how did the vet appt go? Any news on little Emma?

jennie_c_d
02-26-2006, 02:52 PM
Well, I ended up leaving her at home. Since she'd had the big seizure and one little one afterwards, I didn't want to stress her. The vet comes to the grooming shop, where I work. She brought me something to help her detox, and Emma is a little pinker, and seems to be feeling better. We played BALL last night, in the house, and she's still eating really well. New vet is Tuesday, but I'm not sure whether we're going or not. It depends on how she does and whether something more important happens Tuesday (my friend passed away yesterday, and I haven't heard when her service will be).

I leave you with THE BALL!
http://weblogimages.com/static/ahV435698WY8.jpg