PDA

View Full Version : Calcifiying discs



RDavidP
10-27-2010, 10:09 PM
First off, don't worry none of my three have this, and :crossfin: that they don't.

The reason why I am interested in knowing about it is because we took Dumbledore in not just because of almost non-stop diarehea but because all of a sudden he was dragging his back legs. Dumbledore's x-ray Monday morning showed he had some calcifiying discs, which was one of the reasons why he all of a sudden no longer walk with his back legs. We did not enquire further about what could be done to treat it or correct it because the rest of the x-ray and full blood work showed how far the lymphoma had progressed. If we had not put him down Monday morning, it still most likely would have been sometime this week or over this coming weekend due to the lymphoma causing organ failure, suffocation, or other nasty thngs.

Dumbledore had not had any back problems before, never injured it, and we have been carefull about him jumping and with stairs. We either picked him up or taught him to use the ramps. I believe there is some evidence that lymphoma can cause bone calcification (one of the few things on lymphoma I had not researched much of), and if so is what most likely caused Dumbledore's disc calcification.

What are the other causes of disc calcification and how can it be treated?

areese
10-27-2010, 10:25 PM
From what I understand, calcifications in a doxie's spine are quite common. Something that goes along with the dwarfing gene that makes them so short legged and cute also causes premature aging of the discs and they get brittle. calcifications in and of themselves do not cause paralysis. A ruptured or compressed disc does that. Research shows that most often the discs that DO rupture are not the ones that are calcified. Simple x-rays aren't the way to diagnose a disc problem for that reason. A herniation can only be seen in an mri or ct scan or myleogram (I'm spelling that wrong I am sure). You can't treat calcifications...it's just part of their genetics.
Nothing can be done to for sure prevent calcifications. Or really, not herniations either. My dog Laika had a ruptured disc (had surgery). She did and does agility, although the jumping is very low and she doesn't do stairs but did sometimes jump on and off the couch. The actual activity that ruptured it was her digging like a maniac under the edge of the cupboard with her back twisted and on a slippery floor. Lisa's Pogo never did stairs or jumped off and on the furniture and his disc ruptured in bed. There is no real evidence that activities like jumping affect the discs but it is commonly advised not to let doxies do that. esp. jumping down and going down stairs. Also don't let them dangle when picking them up-always support their rear end. You would think that being overweight would be really bad for their backs but that hasn't really been proven. To me it seems as if extra weight pulling down on their backs all the time would be bad...but slender dogs go down as much as the fat ones. although being overweight is bad for them in so many ways.
The thing that confuses me is that all the exercises that dogs can do to strengthen their core and stomach muscles are things they say not to let doxies do..like sitting up or jumping or standing on their hind legs. to me it seems that strong muscles would support the back more. You can read a whole lot about all this on dodger's list...they have a ton of files and reports and research on just about every aspect of it.

Linus
10-27-2010, 10:26 PM
Simple calcification is genetic, and somewhat normal in long backed dogs. Calcifications do not always lead to full blown IVDD, however, some precautions should be taken.

Bailey has two calcifications, and I made the choice to pull him out of agility because of it. However, a very trusted friend who has had hundreds of doxies through her house due to fostering, said that it wasn't necessary to do so.

As far as treatment, I think the only way is to be cautious.

Oops! Amy and I were posting at the same time!

areese
10-27-2010, 10:36 PM
I did forget about one preventative/treatment procedure. It's called laser disc ablation. They use an electrified needle to sorta zap the disc material so they can't rupture. They can't do the total spine...I think they can't do the cervical discs but I'm not sure on all the details. It's only done in Oklahoma, texas, and illinois vet schools as far as I know. As far as effectiveness...hasn't been around long enough or done to enough dogs to really be proven to be totally effective but the results so far are supposed to be good. A few dogs on dodger's list have had it done due to the fact they had multiple ruptures and calcifications on their spines. They are doing well but I would think it would take some years to know for sure.

Alex's Mom
10-28-2010, 07:51 AM
I seem to remember something about steroid use in large doses causing issues with bone mass too, David, but I could be misremembering.

From my understanding of when Maxe went down, calcified disks are not bad necessarily, although they do tend to lead to arthritis of the spine; it's when the disks rupture i.e., aren't calcified, that problems happen. The other thing I learned from recent dealings with Wendal's mobility, is that calicified disks tend to lead to spondyloses, or bone spurs, on the spine, and these can be highly problematic. Alex actually had a number on her back and hips, which was why she had chiro weekly that last year of her life. I've always said that Laura kept her walking long after she could have otherwise. Wendal has 3 calcified disks mid-back, and spondyloses, and that's not helping his fractured pelvis issues. Chiro again. I'm wondering if Dumbledore's weakness was in due part to the spondyloses? Don't know. Interesting, though!

Amy, a very very wise old vet told me when Maxe went down, said that dogs that are "loosy goosy" (in his words :)) i.e., really flexible, are the ones that tend to go down. Those with denser, muscular, inflexible bodies (like Alex...she couldn't even scratch her own ears, or, happily, lick her bum :rolleyes:, she was so inflexible) are much less likely to have problems. Probably because there isn't so much movement in the spine? :scratch: Anyway, this seems to hold true from vets I've talked to about it.

Lisa
10-28-2010, 08:03 AM
**Off topic alert** I just wanted to say that Pogo never ever did stairs, he did jump on and off the couch, which is why we no longer have a couch. I know IVDD is genetic, but my not enforcing his using a ramp on and off the couch is what caused him to go down. Pogo actually blew his disk, it wasn't a slower leak of material, it had to be trauma based.

areese
10-28-2010, 09:24 AM
**Off topic alert** I just wanted to say that Pogo never ever did stairs, he did jump on and off the couch, which is why we no longer have a couch. I know IVDD is genetic, but my not enforcing his using a ramp on and off the couch is what caused him to go down. Pogo actually blew his disk, it wasn't a slower leak of material, it had to be trauma based.


Our neurologist said that if they are going to rupture, they will. Discs have ruptured when dogs turn around in bed. From reading on dodger's, dogs have had catastrophic ruptures without any trauma. maybe it depends on how brittle the discs are... Laika had a slow leak..maybe her disc wasn't as brittle.
I'm interested in the "loosey goosey" theory. Laika has always had a wiggle in her walk...her rear sways back and forth. While Owen is more all of one piece, if that makes sense. he is flexible (have to clean the peen of course) but when he moves it is different than Laika.

Lisa
10-28-2010, 09:28 AM
:faint: if the "loosey goosey" theory is correct, I am going to have a serious P'nut issue. She is in constant wiggle motion. She has never been on stairs or a couch for 2 of her 3 years, so if she does go down, there might be some validity to that theory.

I totally know what you mean about the different walks. Pixel's is different from Pogo's.

Linus
10-28-2010, 01:09 PM
Interesting about the different walks. Bailey is like Owen, he's flexible, but he doesn't wiggle when he walks, he is very much one piece. Hmmm....I hope there's validity to that theory too!

areese
10-28-2010, 01:15 PM
Now Owey is very wriggly like Pnut and can bend himself every which way but for whatever reason, he seems stronger and more stable than Laika. he can sit up (as you know) with his back so straight you could use a level on it. he can hover with his butt an inch from the ground like that too-all of which takes a great deal of core strength. And when he walks/trots/runs, it's different than Laika. He runs more like a terrier without the rocking gait of a doxie like Laika. No hip wriggles at all. he's going on 9 with no problems so...I just don't think he is going to (knock on wood)

RustysMom
10-28-2010, 01:35 PM
we need a video of each types of walks!

I wonder about Odie. He has a small arch in his back and when he walks or runs a little (not full speed) he has a bit of a sway in the back end. He reminds me of a horse. He sits pretty a lot too (but not on command :scratch:) and his bum doesnt touch the ground then. His back too, the meat? on each side of his back bone is very very hard. Muscle? He's very athletic. Now Rusty has been to the vet because he couldn't move, walk or sit. His tummy was a rock and the vet said it was his back, gave him a steroid shot and he was fine the next day. I don't think my vet knows dachshunds like we do. I don't know what about his back was bad? she didn't explain even when I asked and she didn't say anything about crate rest. If it wasn't for DLC, I wouldn't have known to crate him and we did. That was last year. Rustys back is straight as a board and he sits pretty too, but his bum is on the ground. All the boys jump on and off the couch, I just cant stop them! and do try. but do put them on the floor or back onto the couch if I can catch them in time. No stairs in the house but 2 steps to the back door and 10-15 to the basement which is blocked off.

lotsadox
10-28-2010, 01:55 PM
That is interesting about the walks. I know that Amanda always did this weird thing where she didn't trot where alternate legs work together, she did what's called pacing in horses. The legs on one side went forward and back together. She always looked kind of awkward and I finally realized that was why. I always wondered if that was why she blew a disc. She never did stairs either, but did jump on and off the furniture.

Miller is like Owen. Very flexible, but very muscular and stable. He can sit up for hours (at least it seems like it) and he does the hover thing where he's sitting up in meerkat pose but his butt is an inch or so off the floor. He's past 10 now so I'm hoping for the best.:crossfin: :crossfin: :crossfin:

Scooter is really loosey goosey. Oh, lordy, I hope we don't have back problems with him. There is no way I can carry that big long dog and support his back. :shocked:

RDavidP
10-28-2010, 02:43 PM
If I have read everyone right, calcifying discs in and of themselves don't neccessarily cause a dachshund to drag their legs, or walk with the back legs splayed out. It could have been any number of reasons as to why Dumbledore's back legs went down. Friday he was walking fine, Saturday and Sunday morning walking slow, and then Sunday afternoon, walking splayed or not at all.

Lisa
10-28-2010, 03:04 PM
If I have read everyone right, calcifying discs in and of themselves don't neccessarily cause a dachshund to drag their legs, or walk with the back legs splayed out. It could have been any number of reasons as to why Dumbledore's back legs went down. Friday he was walking fine, Saturday and Sunday morning walking slow, and then Sunday afternoon, walking splayed or not at all.

Yes and sorry to get off topic.

RDavidP
10-28-2010, 03:32 PM
Yes and sorry to get off topic.

I have no issue with thread drift. Speak about how different dogs walk, Draco prances like a foppish dandy, while Minny lopes.

LexieLuvr
10-28-2010, 07:55 PM
Just my $.02 worth: when I adopted Lexie, I was advised to be careful with her because she was x-rayed and showed to have a calcified disk. She is more slow and deliberate in her movements, but does occasionally jump off the couch, although she's really good about using the ramp to go up AND down. Jack, my dachsie in motion, whom I thought was stronger since he was more active and always on the move, is the one who went down -- twice. Lexie has never gone down. She's about 12, Jack is around 9. Interesting thread. (And as mentioned, a calcified disk does not always mean a dog will have issues with its back, from all I've learned in the past.)

mom2reds
10-28-2010, 09:28 PM
I was worried when I adopted Roxy because her sister was a "downed doxie". I had heard it was genetic, so I was VERY careful with her. Eight years later, Roxy is now 13yrs old and has never had a back incident. Her sister twisted her back getting out of the dog bed (that's why I do not buy beds with high sides, or anything a dog could trip over or get their leg caught on,etc.). Her owners did not take her to the vet they said they thought she just "pinched a nerve".:wtf2: So, by the time she came into rescue she was permanently disabled. Fortunately, she was adopted by a woman who worked with people in wheelchairs.:cheer3:
Bailey, on the other hand is the one who has a painful calcified disk in his neck. He has never "gone down" but his neck did swell and he was in severe pain. The vet found the calcified disk in the X-ray and Bailey was immediately put on 8 weeks crate rest, can only wear harnesses(no more collars), and must be carried up and down the stairs to go potty outside. I live in a second floor condo that is all one level, the only stairs are outside. He is now on a daily pain medication routine to help with the pain and he is his old, spunky self.:cheer3:

OwnedByDoxies
10-29-2010, 05:41 PM
I did forget about one preventative/treatment procedure. It's called laser disc ablation. They use an electrified needle to sorta zap the disc material so they can't rupture. They can't do the total spine...I think they can't do the cervical discs but I'm not sure on all the details. It's only done in Oklahoma, texas, and illinois vet schools as far as I know. As far as effectiveness...hasn't been around long enough or done to enough dogs to really be proven to be totally effective but the results so far are supposed to be good. A few dogs on dodger's list have had it done due to the fact they had multiple ruptures and calcifications on their spines. They are doing well but I would think it would take some years to know for sure.

Wow, I live in Oklahoma and had no idea that type of treatment was available. I googled it to find out more (http://www.cvhs.okstate.edu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=528) and will definitely file it away just in case *fingers crossed I never need it*

bittyup
11-27-2010, 09:43 PM
http://www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CalcifiedDiscs.htm I thought this was interesting. I remember helping with those myleograms.