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ScarletBegonias
12-14-2012, 12:45 AM
That thread was getting a bit lengthy so I thought I would start a new one for this update.

Cosco seems to be feeling much better. He doesn't seem to be in much pain for the most part and has been more himself as far as appetite and attitude. He even squeeked his favorite hedgehog squeeky toy today. His urination and bowels have been regular and he hasn't had any accidents in a few days, so I guess that means we have gotten on a good schedule as far as expressing his bladder. About once a day he goes outside to pee instead of just on the puppy pad and he tries his best to drag himself out of my grasp and go sniffing around. We have a little makeshift sling for him and I'll let him take a few steps around in that but not too much. He seems to be becoming more aware of his hind end, even if is just learning to deal with it and not necessarily gaining more feelings. When I come home to check on him he doesn't have his feet all tangled up under him as often as he did at first and he seems to be able to sit up, change positions, and lay back down on his own without much trouble or pain which is good.

Went to the vet again today and he said the deep pain sensation is still there and he can put weight on his back legs but that seems to be it from his point of view. He suggested one more acupuncture treatment Monday and then basically said, "go get a cart."

I plan on doing the 8 weeks of crate rest, and probably waiting another month or two after that before I even consider a cart. He may not need it, he may not want it and even if he doesn't regain control prefer to hop around . I think I'd rather spend what money I have on supplements/treatments/etc.

So my question is, if the vet is pretty much "done" with his planned coaurse of action on Monday, what should my plan be? I've got about a weeks more worth of prednisone, should I ask for more or get off it? Should he be on pred the whole time of the crate rest?
The vet keeps seeming to suggest that the laser and acupuncture are not worth it after next week. I think that they have to help, if nothing else with stress/tension/etc just like in humans. I don't want to waste money of course but I'd like to keep doing one or the other or both when possible if anyone has had experience with these I'd like to know which one you found most helpful and in what amounts. I'm wondering like if they work better in conjunction so if I'm going to to one, do both the same day or if it would be better to spread them out or what. If it would negate the benefits if they can't be done with some particular regularity, etc?

The vet also said I could begin passive pt and water pt "anytime." but again, I think I should wait the 8 weeks right? Maybe the basic massaging and "bicycling" the legs could be done sooner but nothing else that might re-injure him.

The vet has not suggested any supplements so far so I'm really not sure about that either.

So many questions, grrr I think this vet is willing to work with me but I feel like I'm crazy, like he's never heard of crate rest and that it is just me being unable to accept facts. I just wish he was more knowledgeable..

Ivan
12-14-2012, 02:46 AM
The vet also said I could begin passive pt and water pt "anytime." but again, I think I should wait the 8 weeks right? Maybe the basic massaging and "bicycling" the legs could be done sooner but nothing else that might re-injure him.

Agreed about waiting a few (2-3) weeks before PT. I would not push him into PT anytime soon. Wait for him to walk on his own first. For now, bicycle legs while he's lying down is about all we would even consider doing. Don't force him to walk until he's ready on his own. At most, stand only to eat/drink, for now. Rest. Rest. Rest. He needs to heal first. Nerves take long to heal, and swelling must go down first. Try to minimize his movements outside: potty fast & then zip back into crate.

Our furboy wasn't ready for the underwater treadmill PT until a long time (3 wks) after surgery. Chances are your vet doesn't do (m)any IVDD cases, but a neurologist vet would. Fwiw, our regular vets also didn't know much at all about IVDD either, but neuro had lots of IVDD experience. Oh, and prednisone was only for the first little while (2 weeks IIRC?). Get more pred if you can, even if you don't use it all up right now.

Alex's Mom
12-14-2012, 07:17 AM
Others know more about the process than I do, so can help you better. So my biggest bit of advice is to GET A NEW VET!!!!!!!!! You need someone a) who knows something about IVDD and b) who you're comfortable working with, and c) isn't going to give up on Cosco when it's not necessary to do so. This one sounds like he's in over his head and is just walking away. Mama, do you have any recommendations in your area?

From everything you've said about Cosco's recovery so far, he's on his way to full recovery. If he's aware of his back end, then he's got sensation there. And from my understanding, if he's got sensation, then a full recovery is possible. Don't give up on your crate rest plan, and DO NOT listen to your vet's negativity. Many many MANY more :bigrayz::bigrayz::bigrayz: and just as many :hug99::hug99::hug99:. You're doing a great job with your little guy...hang in there!

Lisa
12-14-2012, 08:51 AM
Please keep him on Pred and tramadol for at least 5 weeks. DO NOT DO ANY PT WITH HIM YET. Please, please, please let him rest for at least 5 weeks. He needs the area time to heal. I have been down this road, and I know your frustration, you just want your little guy to be better. He will be, but he needs time to heal. If you start PT too soon, you can do more harm then good, because the disc hasn't calcified yet. I know people are anti PT at any point of the 8 weeks, but I saw a Professional at week 5 with Pixel. It is worth doing one appointment (again at week 5 or 6), so you can learn the proper techniques and he can be properly evaluated. And we went slow...really really slow. He was literally out for 5 minutes, and there was no bicycling, that is for surgery dogs. I slinged him with a tensor bandage under his legs and Rafi crawled behind Pixel and corrected his legs giving him proper foot placement (but again, that was not until after week 5).

Do not get a cart for him yet, you will just be creating a self-fulling prophecy if you put him in it. He is not ready to move around, you can do permanent damage to the disc.

Hang in there, it sounds like he is improving!! That is GOOD. If he is not better by mid January, then think about a cart for him. In the meantime, just let his body heal. Just to put it in perspective. If you broke your arm, would you expect it to be 100% within a week? You would accept it needs 8 weeks to heal in a cast and then you would start physical therapy after it is out of it's cast. Cosco is in his cast stage now. :bigrayz: :bigrayz: :bigrayz: :bigrayz: :bigrayz:

SasatheRusty
12-14-2012, 10:01 AM
Great advice from Lisa. He still needs the meds. Also, he needs to use his body, & a cart at this point may cause his muscles to atrophy. Keep up the great care!

LexieLuvr
12-14-2012, 10:38 AM
Great advice from everyone - EXCEPT YOUR VET!! He is not familiar enough with IVDD and as mentioned, seems negative and just thinks you should give up. NO NO NO!!! Follow the advice above, with AT LEAST 8 weeks of crate rest - LET THE SPINE HEAL!!! It seems he is having some improvement which is a GREAT sign that things are getting better - that will continue with more crate rest. Nerves take a LOOOOOOOOOOOONG time to regenerate to tell the legs to move again, so BE PATIENT! I've heard of cart dogs who walked again, after months/years in a cart - DO NOT GIVE UP and get a new vet!!! Preferably one with IVDD experience and/or a neuro, if you can find one. That's your best bet. I'm so sorry your vet is such a putz. Find a new one ASAP! :bigrayz::bigrayz::bigrayz::bigrayz::bigrayz: I checked - there are 3 vet neuros at the University of Georgia, and another in Athens, Dr. Craig Greene (phone 706-542-7390). I would certainly check out another vet who KNOWS about IVDD - many does not, and yours is one of them. Good luck, and keep us posted!:bigrayz::bigrayz::bigrayz: (And yes, it's way too early for doing any PT - it's still time for healing.) BTW, when Jack went down the first time and still had DPR and some movement, laser therapy and acupuncture worked VERY well on him, along with rest and meds.

lotsadox
12-14-2012, 10:43 AM
I agree with Lisa that Cosco needs more time to heal. Sadly, vets seem to give up on dogs if they don't heal immediately. When Bandit was down, I took her to the neuro for a MRI so we'd know what was going on. They suggested surgery, but since she was a 14 year old dog, we decided not to do the surgery. Basically, they handed her back to me and said "Good luck". I cried all the way home. Thank doG my vet was not ready to give up on her and we worked with her and did chiro and healing touch and she walked again. It was the same thing with Bogart. He went down over the weekend and the e-vet treated him on Sat. They wanted to see him back on Sunday and when there was no improvement told me that he would probably not walk again. Again, my regular vet stepped up and worked with me and he also walked again. Crate rest and meds can work wonders. I would ask for my tramadol and pred for him. It took Bogart 10 weeks of pred (tapering off the last couple weeks) to get him healed.

From what you're saying Cosco is making good progress. It takes time. LOTS of time to heal. You're doing everything right and keeping him confined and not allowing him to run around when you are outside. Just keep that up. I wouldn't do any PT yet. Rest and healing are what Cosco needs now. As Ivan said, some bicycling of the rear legs is about all you need to do. After the 8 (or so ) weeks of crate rest then you can consider that.

I'm so sorry you don't live close. I'd get you in with my vet. She definitely doesn't give up on dogs until she's given them plenty of time to heal. I have never done acupuncture or laser treatments so I can't tell you anything about that.

I know this is hard. Crate rest with Bogart was one of the hardest things I've ever done, but it was so worth it. Just keep doing what you're doing.

SasatheRusty
12-14-2012, 11:42 AM
Our current Vet was great with Penny Lane. He listened and let me keep her on prednisone 2.5 every other day from October to December in 2009 as she improved. Being an RN, I am quite familiar with human treatment as well as dogs. During that time Penny was also on Duralactin 1/2 tab(non prescription) and also Pepcid. This was after the acute problem which was when she was partially paralyzed and in Intractable Pain. Now after all that (three years ago) she is a prancing and running around happy girl. Believe me, I cried many tears over her. When she first pranced & hippity hopped, DH & I cried tears of joy! Never give up hope! My Vet respected my medical knowledge and valued my input. Sometimes you have to assert yourself or change Vets. The one prior to our current Vet had given up on her. He called her "damaged goods". So we searched for someone who valued her sweet life. Penny Lane is a rescue and has been with us from October 2002. She is worth every "penny" we spent on her.🐾🐾❤

Ivan
12-14-2012, 12:12 PM
Reading material at http://www.dodgerslist.com/links.htm

If you join the Yahoo group belonging to Dodgerslist (http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Dodgerslist) then you can search their "General DVM Vet Recommendations Database". It lists these 3 in SC:

SC Veterinary Specialist Referral Services Dr Michelle Wascek/ Dr Randy Basinger/ Dr Glover
124 Stonemark Dr, Columbia, SC 29210(Neuro/Ortho Surgeon)

Veterinary Services of the Southeast: Dr. P. Shealy, Dr. R. Pernell
3169 W. Montague Ave, North Charleston SC Ph# 843-566-0023 (E-mail: VSS.org) (surgeon, PT)

Upstate Veterinary Specialists - Dr. Allen and Dr. Jensen
393 Woods Lake Rd., Greenville SC 29607 864.233.7650 (Surgeon)

LexieLuvr
12-14-2012, 12:24 PM
Good suggestions, Ivan! Thanks for posting.

lotsadox
12-14-2012, 01:29 PM
That's a great resource for all of us, Ivan. Thanks for posting it!

ScarletBegonias
12-14-2012, 05:44 PM
Cool, sounds like pretty much what I was planning all along. I will ask for a prescription for more prednisone and tramadol and pass along the dodgerslist info to the vet. What's sad is that he was the better of the two that we talked to and the only one on the dodgerslist approved vet list is in greenville, almost an hour away. I may call and speak to them and see what they offer in the way of PT once we reach that point. I could drive him there occasionally but not often. It's just so odd that he doesn't seem more optimistic than he does. I mean this vet is known in town as the kind of "over the top" vet as far as offering the acupuncture, the laser therapy, chiropractic, etc. They even have someone (not on staff but an associate) that does Reiki and will come to your house and do energy work with your, your dog, your house, etc. I just feel like a vet at that kind of practice would be more knowledgeable about this stuff, especially since I KNOW for a fact that they have had at least one doxie there that went down and recovered. Michele's Chuck went there when he was down a few years ago and her Aunt Wendy works there. Maybe he saw a different vet at the practice but still you think it would be at least somewhat part of the general knowledge/culture of the place.
Anyway, yea. I think Monday I'm going to just tell the vet what I'm doing instead of the other way around.
1) We are finishing 8 weeks crate rest before considering a cart or anything else, so stop talking about it.
2) I want pred and tramadol for the duration of that 8 weeks.
3) I would like to continue the laser and acupuncture intermittently throughout that time, as I can afford it. Maybe once a week? or every other week?
4) I want to see the vet again for a re-assesment at 4 weeks.
5) After 8 weeks I want to schedule a visit with a therapist, there or elsewhere and learn how to do at home PT and water therapy.
6) IF and only IF after 3 months he is still paralyzed we will discuss a cart. Until then lets just act as if he IS going to get better!

...And I'm gonna sound like of those crazy people bringing internet info in but oh, well. Maybe he will start doing some research and learn something. And if he doesn't seem interested we will start looking elsewhere. Maybe even if they aren't a neuro, there is a vet in Spartanburg or somewhere else a little closer with more experience.

Alex's Mom
12-14-2012, 05:52 PM
You go, girl!!!! That's an awesome plan :hug99::hug99: (have I mentioned that I wish we could clone Laura??? :rolleyes: )

Rae
12-14-2012, 08:03 PM
Ita you have to take charge and tolerate NO negativity. Its been a week and he's talking cart? Um NO.
I'm so so so glad you came back here. There's no substitute for experience, and there's no arguing with the FACTS that are these dogs ("damaged goods" my fanny) who are walking, running, and prancing around after just such a prognosis.
Keep on trucking.

AnnMarieK
12-14-2012, 10:18 PM
No one has mentioned that with pred you can't just take him off of it... he has to be weaned off. So make sure when you are ready to take him off your vet gives you a schedule to get him off safely. Good luck you sound like you are on the right track !!!!

oceangirls
12-14-2012, 10:30 PM
HOLY SHEEP, SARAH :holysheep:. I am so sorry your vet (the "better" one!) is being so negative about this!! It's been what? - a week? It seems to me that in several of IVDD stories I've read on DLC, the dog was still in the worsening process after a week. Maybe not the majority, but Lisa's Pixel is a great example where he would seem a little better, then a little worse, etc., etc., etc. for a very long time. My girl recovered rapidly (maybe 4 days), but I would say she's the exception, not the rule.

I think if I were you, it might be worth *one* visit to a vet who specializes in IVDD rehab... just to reassure you you're on the right track and NOT crazy and help you with a timeline.

We have many, many IVDD success stories on here. It seems like your vet has had limited experience and has a predetermined negative outlook, which is unfortunate.

Continued rayz :bigrayz::bigrayz::bigrayz::hug99:

lotsadox
12-15-2012, 12:52 AM
No one has mentioned that with pred you can't just take him off of it... he has to be weaned off. So make sure when you are ready to take him off your vet gives you a schedule to get him off safely. Good luck you sound like you are on the right track !!!!

That's very true, AnnMarie. I thought of that earlier and forgot to mention it. We had to taper Bogart off of it very, very gradually. The first times we tried, he relapsed and we had to go slower.

LexieLuvr
12-17-2012, 11:10 AM
ITA - your plan is a winner!!! :appl::appl::appl: Too bad you know more than the vet - but often that's the case.

ScarletBegonias
12-29-2012, 02:52 PM
hey guys, sorry for the long internet silence. Holidays craziness was abounding and I didn't spend much time on the internets.

Cosco is still essentially the same though I continue to see more small improvements. He has been standing up!:cheer3: but I can't tell if he is actually using his back legs to get up or just heaving himself up with his front legs and using his back legs like a tripod to prop himself up. Either way I think its good, he's either learning to adapt or getting some motion back.

When I take him outside to pee with his sling he hikes his leg, its wobbly and whatnot but the impulse is there.

and when I am massaging his back legs and rubbing his pads he will jerk away sooner than before. At first he would only show response to a serious pinch in the webbing between his toes but now he will pull his leg back just from my wiggling his toes and rubbing forcefully on his pads.

He does seem to keep his back legs very stiff and straight pretty often which is kind of disconcerting but other than that he seems good.

Poor man just misses being part of the action so much.

As far as the vet goes we just kind of have been ignoring it for the past week. The vet was closed for the holidays and we've been busy so we've just taken a week off but next week after new years I'm going to call and schedule another acupuncture treatment and ask to speak to the other vet in the practice, the one that actually does the acupuncture and laser, as I have heard better things about her. I'd like to meet her in person and maybe see if I can watch one of the treatments, and have her be the official vet on the case.

Hope everyone had a great holiday!

Alex's Mom
12-29-2012, 03:19 PM
Great update!!! And I think your vet plan is awesome!! She should let you be there during the treatment; it's not invasive or anything, and it helps to have mom there! More :bigrayz::bigrayz::bigrayz: and :hug99::hug99::hug99: coming at ya!!

lotsadox
12-29-2012, 03:50 PM
Thanks for the update. It sounds like Cosco is improving. Sometimes the progress is really slow and you just have to be patient. And it does sound like there's progress!

I think your plan for the vet sounds great also. Keep us posted.

LexieLuvr
12-31-2012, 10:51 AM
ITA with Paula - and that definitely is progress!! Keep up the good work; and yes, I'd stay with the vet when they do treatments. In fact, my vet WANTS me to be in the room when she treats my guys. More get-well :bigrayz::bigrayz::bigrayz: