The raw vs. commercial debate

[Loren]

found this while surfing ....

http://wcco.com/seenon/local_story_151091209.html

[Michelle]

Thanks for sharing that, interesting article, though I don't agree with what the vet says about raw feeding, I have seen the difference already in Heidi and Princess, especially their teeth when it comes to raw meaty bones, and have my father's dogs who survive on Pedigree to compare to,, their dogs teeth are in just god awful shape, they have to have dentals twice a year and their stools are just huge and smelly etc... their fur has been reduced to peach fuzz instead of its long and silky coat they should have.

I always freeze my raw food, it is always frozen for multiple days before it is given to the dogs.

I can assume that many vets who get kickbacks from the pet food industry for advocating the use of their food will say what they do, also because vets are not animal nutritionists, they know nothing about animal nutrition, just like our medical doctors don't, they can help you fix something wrong in your body but they don't know any more about nutrition than the average person, unless they happen to specialize in nutrition.

I wasn't totally sold on the raw feeding until I actually tried it with the girls and I have seen the vast difference in them compared to before. I don't know if I will ever go totally raw, but for right now, feeding them 50% kibble and 50% raw is working well for me, except the fact that Princess now seems to be puking her raw beef, which I will have to work on that and find out if she just cannot tolerate the raw beef anymore..

[Loren]

[QUOTE=Michelle]Thanks for sharing that, interesting article, though I don't agree with what the vet says about raw feeding,

Nope..me neither but unfortunately that is the way MANY vets feel.


I wasn't totally sold on the raw feeding until I actually tried it with the girls and I have seen the vast difference in them compared to before.

Me either...I actually had to see it for myself to believe it...we will never go back to kibble again. Raw has done wonders!

[Jen]

We feed Tasha raw mediallions which come frozen, so I don't worry too much. I can see though, that with some of the poor meat handling conditions in this country that dogs could get bad meat. You need a good butcher or a trustworthy grocery store. I think Tasha's coat is a bit nicer on raw, and she likes it a lot, but the Evo is so good I can't honestly say I've seen a huge change. Now, getting her off of a corn based food--that made a HUGE difference!

[Courtney]

"Raw food is killing pets" -- uhhhhhh what about all the Diamond food involved in the recall? Pretty sure that killed hundreds of pets!

There will always be a debate about raw vs. commercial and those who are adamantly for one or the other will probably never change their minds....as much as I wish I could scream to the world that commercial dog food is complete crap, it's just not going to change minds. I will say that clean breath and healthy dogs are not MYTHS of raw feeding as that vet says. The proof is in the pudding and I've got 5 "puddings" at my house who are thriving and getting healthier daily on raw. Milo's coat has come back in after 3 weeks on raw, and Clyde and Bonnie are quickly slimming down. Thor lost 5 pounds on diet alone and the skin issues he had when we got him are gone. He is fit, trim, shiny and gorgeous.

And what was that sentence that said "meat isn't regulated?" I am sure the meat you buy at the grocery store has to meet some standards, and that is where I shop!

I think the reporting on this article is fairly lame! Needs more sources!

[Michelle]

"Raw food is killing pets" -- uhhhhhh what about all the Diamond food involved in the recall? Pretty sure that killed hundreds of pets!

And what was that sentence that said "meat isn't regulated?" I am sure the meat you buy at the grocery store has to meet some standards, and that is where I shop!

I think the reporting on this article is fairly lame! Needs more sources!

Yes, YEs, and Yes, I can't believe they only interviewed two people for the article..

[Michelle]

I don't understand that statement either "meat isn't regulated", most people I know that raw feed buy their food from the human stores, and feed the very same meat that they would be eating themselves,, I wonder if she is saying that our grocery store meat is not regulated???, Abusurd, we would have a lot more sick people out there if the grocery store meat was not regulated...

[oceangirls]

I don't understand that statement either "meat isn't regulated", most people I know that raw feed buy their food from the human stores, and feed the very same meat that they would be eating themselves,, I wonder if she is saying that our grocery store meat is not regulated???, Abusurd, we would have a lot more sick people out there if the grocery store meat was not regulated...

Do keep in mind that most humans COOK their food and heat destroys bacteria. I realize the dog digestive system is different and they can tolerate certain pathogens that would make us sick. But a certain amount of contamination is permissible in meat/poultry (even seafood); that is why cooking temperature guidelines exist.

For instance, the tuna my local grocery store sells is not "sushi grade" :)

[catstamm]

I'm still on the fence about the whole raw vs premium kibble controversy.....and I believe a lot of people that feed raw don't investigate and research it completely and that is dangerous..... you can't just go to the market and buy a flat of chicken legs and call that a raw diet....the meat from the market is filled with hormones and god know what else. If you are going to feed raw (which I do once a week as a treat) you have to go to a pet specialty food store and buy the frozen that is prepared as a complete diet for the dogs....for example, Natures Variety Praire medallions.
Time is something I have very little of and until I have the time to research raw correctly I feed my girls Nature Variety Praire Venison Kibble.
People also have to remember dogs are not carnavors.....
Courtney seems extremely educated on the raw food diet and a good person to refer questions tooo....

[Jen]

Meat inspection in the country is NOT all it should be. We feed herbivores grain with meat remnants mixed in (hello, mad cow disease), and not all of them are kept in clean humane conditions. People DO get sick from grocery store meat, there are always news stories about ecoli outbreaks.

True, dogs are not affected by many of the bacteria as we are. Personally, I think raw is great and so are many top quality kibbles. But my personal feeling is, any dog food advertised on tv is not worth buying. I met a woman with a FAT doxie on walkies last week and she was admiring Tasha and complaining her dog is getting fat. I asked what she fed her, and it was a grocery store brand...Beneful or some such crap. I told her about the raw medallions, how easy it is, and how much Tasha loves them. I don't think I got thru to her though. :(

[Courtney]

and I believe a lot of people that feed raw don't investigate and research it completely and that is dangerous..... you can't just go to the market and buy a flat of chicken legs and call that a raw diet


VERY, VERY true!! I read things backwards and forwards before I switched to raw. Even now, everything is still a learning process. You have to do the research.


the meat from the market is filled with hormones and god know what else.


No, it's not. In this country, it is illegal to put hormones into chicken. I understand if you prefer organic meat, and a lot of people do, but plain and simple, if it is sold at the grocery store for human consumption, I have to trust that it is good enough for me AND my pets to eat. More info on potential bacteria: http://rawfed.com/myths/bacteria.html


If you are going to feed raw (which I do once a week as a treat) you have to go to a pet specialty food store and buy the frozen that is prepared as a complete diet for the dogs....for example, Natures Variety Praire medallions.

No, you don't!! The premix may be convenient for many people, and while it's a step up from kibble, it does not give the full benefits of raw meaty bones. I definitely understand that many people cannot feed the way I do and choose the premix and that is fine. Or even if they choose kibble - it's their choice and it's fine. But the way I feed, which is not a premix or homemade or anything, IS balanced. More info: http://rawfed.com/myths/balance.html


People also have to remember dogs are not carnavors.....

Why do you say dogs are not carnivores? They most definitely are. More info: http://rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html

[HotDogMama]

Well, I am sorry to say that I had to take Molly off of the raw medallions.... remember the "ear funk" she had that the vet couldn't cure, well one week back on kibble and viola!!..... fur is back, and they look GREAT now.... so weird I know,:scratch: but that is the only thing that changed them.
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c4/JHerron1278/MOLLY323.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c4/JHerron1278/MOLLY322.jpg

[catstamm]

Which is exactly why I stay away from the whole raw controversy.....nothing is proven and there is to much to investigate....I disagree and believe dogs are omnivores....and that's my final answer....who sponsors that site???? Who is it written and but together by?
I'm still really interested in what exactly you feed your puppers courtney....see what I mean about so much to learn.....I thought the prepackaged stuff was the best you could buy??????
How long have your dogs been on raw??? Maybe I'll pm you because this is very interesting ......

[Courtney]

No one sponsors it. Someone who feeds raw maintains it as an educational service to those who feed raw! You can't just "believe" dogs are omnivores. You need proof. The facts show that they are carnivores. period!

[catstamm]

I wasn't arguing with you and I'm not saying you are wrong ...and I have read many things where dr's and scientist believe dogs are omnivores, one being the University of Michigan, Zoology Dept and the man has a PHD....I realize that doesn't make him God .....but this isn't a subject I'm an expert on by any means as I said earlier....sorry I got involved, didn't mean to upset anyone.

[lotsadox]

Okay, I've been feeding raw for 10+ years now. Bogart has really been my test case. He was been on raw food and natural medicince since the was just past 2. He is now 14 and the only health problem that he has is slightly itchy skin when allergens are bad. Most of my dog live to be 16-17 years old and are healthy as horses. I'm totally sold on raw diet. I have very little bad breath, good coats, few anal gland problems, few allergies.

I did see one thing in this thread that is something of a misnomer is the part about hormones. It is correct that hormones are not added to meat, but cattle and chickens both are fed food that contains hormones that make them fatten and mature faster. There are some hormones in the meat we eat. It is better to get organic meat, but you need to make sure what they mean when they say organic. I'm not sure what the rules are now for advertising "organic" products. They used to be pretty loose. You didn't have to do a lot to be able to label your food "organic".

[oceangirls]

there's nothing proven about any type of diet being the ultimate answer for all dogs. Just like there's nothing proven about any type of diet being the ultimate answer for all humans. There are no randomized controlled clinical trials by unbiased investigators. People feed and recommend raw based on theories that makes sense to them and on their own experience and on testimonials from other people who have had good luck with raw. Same goes for feeding a commercial diet. Same goes for feeding a "homemade" cooked food diet, or the Volhard plan, or whatever. I don't feed raw, but respect those of you who do. Please remember there are a few of us out here who don't think all commercial foods are crap :)... it's hard for us to get a word in egdewise sometimes.

I think it is great that so many people on DLC are concerned with feeding a good diet of whatever type. I am sure all our dogs eat better than many of us do :D

[Patt]

As you may or may not know I do not believe in feeding what currently is being called the raw foods diet. I prefer to use quality kibble w/additions of veggies etc. The discussion about feeding raw foods apparently will go on forever and I personally don’t want to become entangled in such an unending and potentially divisive debate. At this point I'm going to second Kim's comments on the subject and hopefully leave it at that.

If you are bound and determined to feed raw however, please research the subject as thoroughly as you can before doing so. There are many Internet links both for and against the raw food feeding issue. You have to decide which is best for your dog.

Here’s a few links to clue you in on hormones etc. and whether dogs are really carnivores.

Just like human beings, dogs can be either carnivores or omnivores. It depends both upon what's available or what article you are reading at the time, i.e. the link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog

According to the USDA, chickens are supposed to be free from hormones, but that apparently doesn’t include chickens which may be fed foods that may contain hormones. Purchasing organic chickens and other meats would appear to be the ideal.

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets/Chicken_Food_Safety_Focus/index.asp

Hormones in meat and poultry
http://www.drweil.com/u/QA/QA71087/

Beef, poultry & hogs
http://www.sustainabletable.org/issues/hormones/

[lotsadox]

Okay, omnivore vs carnivore. I believe the dogs are basically carnivores. That said, when a canine in the wild kills and eats it's prey, it will eat all of the soft organs (Yeah, I know this is gross) including the stomach contents, intestines, etc. Depending on what animal it has killed, there may be considerable vegetation in these organs that the canine will also eat. That could be why dogs digestion is capable of digesting vegetables only when they are the consistency of baby food. And like dogs canines in the wild will eat grass, berries etc if there is no other food. I don't believe that this qualifies them to be omnivores (but then I'm not an expert at labels), but they do consume some vegetation in the wild. I consider them carnivores and the experts can consider them anything they want. My dogs do get non-meat with their meals. I feed them my leftover steamed veggies, etc. I don't think it hurts them and they seem to enjoy the variety.

[Chrystyna]

I believe that dogs are carnivores. I'm not saying that my dogs don't ever get veggies, but it's not part of their day to day diet. They are not allowed to have people food, but if I'm eating carrots, broccoli, cauliflower I will share some of that with them.

Right now I have a Dane foster who has IBD, so we're trying to find ways to put extra meat on her bones. She lost significant weight with the IBD issues and now that she's on a full raw diet she has stopped throwing up or having diahhrea. So, I wanted to feed her veggies daily to just add more food to her meat. She ate every drop of them like a champ, but as the days passed I noticed that every time she had a bowel movement I could see a ton of the veggie pieces in her poop. At that point I truly realized dogs did not NEED vegetables. Her body wasn't processing them, just passing them through.

[Lisa]

I agree with Patt (and the others), who have said you HAVE to do your own research and see what works best with YOUR dog(s), we can offer opinion, links and other information but every single dog and situation is different and what works for some will not work for others.

[quavec]

Having read this thread and so many others like it, I agree that it all goes back to research, time, money and what works best for you pup.

I applaud those who do the raw diet. I've seen the results on the board (none first hand). But I feed kibble. And I've fed all kinds of kibble. I don't fault anyone who feeds Pedigree or even Ole Roy. I tell them about what I feed and the results that it has produced and hope that they will give it a try. I talked a friend into giving her Llapso Natural Balance becuase he was having some funky ear smells and she swtiched and they went away. However, money got tight and she went back to her standby - the ear problems came back. What can you do?